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 Hi Nukers.
As FB has decided to release PHP-Nuke 6.6 only to club members, and in doing so is technically in breach of the GNU/GPL licence, NukeCops cannot and will not provide any support for it.
More follows.....
The reasons we've had to say this are as follows:
1. Most of us here don't have a current club membership and therefore don't have access to the PHP-Nuke 6.6 distribution.
2. We don't provide support for any software that isn't distributed or being used legally - this includes Restriction of Distribution under the GNU/GPL to paying customers only, and removal of copyright information.
3. Every Nuke Elite on this site has slugged their guts out for Nuke 6.5 and got little or no recognician from FB about it except when we've made it very public that we're the ones doing the hard work.
4. FB has made changes and fixes to this sub-release that he's not informed us about, meaning that those people who can't afford to join the Club don't get the same fixes they're entitled to under the GNU/GPL
Any comments appreciated, but please, bare in mind there are legal, personal and principal reasons behind us not supporting FB's latest release as I've just outlined.
Only releases made to the public will be supported by us. This is a policy that will hold for future releases too.
AI
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Posted on Saturday, May 24 @ 17:21:00 CEST by ArtificialIntel |
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Average Score: 4.8
Votes: 10
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Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by Brujo on Saturday, May 24 @ 17:38:23 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) | I totally agree with you, and i am glad for your clear position and actual opinion.
cause i like the service and well done job of you guys.
with best regards
Brujo |
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Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by jimmyjimjim on Saturday, May 24 @ 17:49:07 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) | | Good on you! Stick to your guns... I fear that FB has set the tone for a new fork war. The next 6 months are going to very intersting... :-) |
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Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by snarfies3 on Saturday, May 24 @ 18:48:02 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) http://www.temple-anime.org/erik/ | I am truely perplexed. Would you be so kind as to point out the exact clause or clauses of the GPL that are being violated? Because as near as I can see, none are. In fact, it states verbatim in the GPL preamble, "Our General Public Licenses are designed to make sure that you have the freedom to distribute copies of free software (and charge for this service if you wish), that you receive source code or can get it if you want it, that you can change the software or use pieces of it in new free programs; and that you know you can do these things."
In other words, you can charge for GPL software. FB says he's going to give it our for free in 30 days, but he isn't even obligated to do THAT if he doesn't want. I hope he does, but he doesn't have to. There are Linux distros that aren't avaialble for free, either (Xandros springs to mind). |
Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by Raven on Saturday, May 24 @ 19:20:15 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) http://ravenphpscripts.com | First of all, he is NOT giving it out in 30 days. You have misread his post. He is NOT giving out the interim releases to anyone except the club.
As to the GPL, again, you misread. You cannot charge for the software itself, only the delivery medium and I believe only if it is in binary form, not ascii. He is restricting the GPL'd software. He then tries to restrict you from distributing it even if you purchased it. Another violation. It's GPL! |
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Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by snarfies3 on Saturday, May 24 @ 22:48:42 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) http://www.temple-anime.org/erik/ | I may have misread the 30 day part. Since I have my site patched six ways to Sunday anyhow, I wasn't going to upgrade right away anyhow. ^_^
However, I still don't see a GPL violation. The delivery medium for PHPNuke 6.6 is a website. He is charging $10 for access. Clause 3 of the GPL states that source code (ascii) is the preferred form of transmission, and FB is in compliance with subclause "a," which is the only one he needs to be in compliance with.
I ask again for you to point out what clause of the GPL has been violated. According to http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html, nothing wrong is going on here.
Now, FB does not then get to say "Don't redistribute 6.6" according to the same GPL. So, if you are so concerned, why not get 6.6 and put it online on your own site? Maybe post it to some newsgroups, too. You're allowed. GPL says so. Do something rather than complain if it bothers you. |
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Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by snarfies3 on Saturday, May 24 @ 22:56:51 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) http://www.temple-anime.org/erik/ | | BTW, I have just gone back and looked over the post on phpnule.org about 6.6. You are correct, it doesn't say anything about the 30 days. I got that from http://www.phpnuke.org/modules.php?name=Club, which says you as a member get "PHP-Nuke Official releases 30 days before the public release." Therefore, I assumed that 6.6 would be given to the public after 30 days. By which time there may well be a 6.6.1. ^_^ |
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Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by ArtificialIntel on Saturday, May 24 @ 19:28:22 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Raven's right. read the GNU/GPL. You can't charge for the product, only the Support & the media used to deliver it (which doesn't include downloads).
That's why Linux is free for every distro. Red Hat and SuSE and Mandrake have versions out that are packaged with commercial software that aren't free, and they charge for support, but they have to have a free version - by law - under the GNU.
AI |
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Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by snarfies3 on Saturday, May 24 @ 22:52:49 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) http://www.temple-anime.org/erik/ | Where does it say that a webserver is not a valid medium? Here's a quote from the GPL FAQ (http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#DoesTheGPLAllowDownloadFee):
"Does the GPL allow me to charge a fee for downloading the program from my site?
Yes. You can charge any fee you wish for distributing a copy of the program. If you distribute binaries by download, you must provide "equivalent access" to download the source--therefore, the fee to download source may not be greater than the fee to download the binary."
As for every Linux being required to to give out a freee version, it isn't so. Xandros is not free. Lindows is not free (though is in GPL violation in other ways as I understand it, but admitedly I haven't been paying attention on that count). |
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Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by SteveO on Saturday, May 24 @ 21:26:29 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Now I feel stupid. I liked PHP Nuke 6.5 with the exception of all the bugs and basically lack of mods, so much I paid the $10.00 just to get 6.6 for one month. I can not and will not pay $10.00 a month for something that may or may not be updated monthly, in fact, I wouldn't pay $10.00 a month for something that was. That's $120.00 a year, (wiping egg off face). Although I'm still waiting to get my membership stuff so I can get it, I sure hope it's soon, I'm just curious as to how many bugs are in 6.6.
I guess I stepped over to the danger side, when I paid the $10, especially since it may be harder to find mods and blocks, due to the lack of people paying $10.00 to get 6.6. Oh well, I'll just loose $10.00 this month. And most likely may even drop php nuke all together. |
Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by jimmyjimjim on Saturday, May 24 @ 23:21:57 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Don't feel ripped. I've been a contributing member of the Club a couple of times. Nuke just isn't what it was 6 months ago (like 11 cat years). FB definitely has a strategy. Make a release every 31 days or so to keep the club going. I think he charges way to much for a script that may become extinct after Nukecops and Nukescripts release their forks.
Let the games begin! I just hope that Google tap stays autonomous. I've moded the shite outa my site and wont be able to upgrade;(
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Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by SteveO on Sunday, May 25 @ 05:57:39 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Well, as I was typing that, my code came for the club, so I grabbed it real quick. I was reading, or should I say TRYING to read on how to do an update, in the instructions, it says to upload the upgrade file along with all new files. What I thought was funny, is he fails to mention what all the new files were. So in short, I ditched my 6.5 site and I'm in the process of building the new 6.6 site, loosing everything I had, users, links etc. Didn't feel like waiting for a response from him on that question.
That was one point I made over on his site. This club doesn't do us any good if you can't afford the 10.00 a month, but rather do it every other month.. I says with this club you get free updates for 30 days. I'm just curious, how many updates he'll have before June 24th. I did browse his club section for downloads just for club members, I had to laugh at what... the 6 files there, and of course none for 6.6. :( Oh well.. I just hope 6.6 fixes the bug with the forums link, if not I'll be pretty ticked off. |
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Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by Klaus on Sunday, May 25 @ 04:25:47 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Just a little on-topic(!) quiz with 2 questions:
Q1: Version 6.5 is named PHP-Nuke-6.5.tar.gz. Version 6.6 will be named?
Q2: When you hear on MTV a tune you like why do you rush for a pencil and a piece of paper and stare at the TV till the end of the video clip?
So, why all the fuzz? LOL. Have fun. |
Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by SteveO on Sunday, May 25 @ 05:59:41 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) | And the answers are?
Klaus, do you like paying any amount of money for buggy software?
I personally don't watch MTV. ;) I'm more country. |
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Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by manunkind on Sunday, May 25 @ 14:27:25 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) | | You're missing his whole point. lol |
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Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by RikMerle on Sunday, May 25 @ 20:15:51 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) http://www.phpnukesupport.net | Version 6.6 is named: PHP-Nuke-6.6.tar.gz
I agree there is no need to start another WAR around PhpNuke as there are enough! |
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Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by Namsul on Sunday, May 25 @ 06:02:16 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) http://www.junkmail.com.au | Bravo NukeCops.
I totally agree with your support & re-iterate that people who can't afford nuke will miss out on the latest release even after loyal support in the past. People raise the point of linux distros that are paid for. You pay for the packaging & manuals or possible support. And like linux distros, the unfortunate result of what happens with the club, "People respond with their feet" they walk away & find a product more to their liking. |
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Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by Namsul on Monday, May 26 @ 06:19:06 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) http://www.junkmail.com.au | | You miss the point..it ISN'T $10...it's $10 a month for something then sometimes for nothing. My site costs me A$400 but my ISP offers support & services. Not occassionally but every month of the year. I paid the club fee to get 6.5 a week early then a week after my membership ran out fb changed what members got & a week or 2 after that releases 6.6 (2 members only). My gripe is he ISN"T offering any kind of value for that $10 a month. When I joined it offered members only addons and block. I got a community module (which was later release by someone with data ALREADY entered) and a moon block. That to me was either dishonest or at the very leat a ripoff. So dude before you worry about my finances look at it this way if you paid $10 for something in a shop & it didn't deleiver you'de take it back, complain or at least tell 11 people (a lesson in good management) to make them aware. |
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Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by joho-noho on Sunday, May 25 @ 12:56:08 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) http://www.joho-noho.net | | I know that you guys are releasing your own version of 6.5, but have you acctually considered making your own nuke, with better support and a larger team? I think it would be great to have a nuke "distro" from you guys. If you do make your own nuke, run your site like phpwebsite does and not like phpnuke does. |
Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by NovemberRain on Sunday, May 25 @ 17:34:59 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) | that was exactly what i was thinking. people like you Zhen-Xjell, Artifical intel, mikem, BobMarion, Chatserv and other nice people should come together and release your own version. cause F.B is doing silly things. PHP-Nuke will be no good with him anymore.
you are doing more for this community than F.B and F.B does not care about you. He only cares about money. |
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Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by Dunderklumpen on Monday, May 26 @ 07:18:55 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) | | Go for it. I can help you with the documentation since I already have written it in Swedish. |
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Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by RikMerle on Sunday, May 25 @ 17:14:23 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) http://www.phpnukesupport.net | | Just buy it and continue supporting, why should FB handle you guys different then all others ? he has said thank you in his 6.5 release...... |
Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by ArtificialIntel on Monday, May 26 @ 07:55:56 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) | why should we?
The GNU/GPL is a FREE SOFTWARE LICENCE. The only thanks we got from FB was one little post which he didn't have any choice to make because we'd made it very very public that we'd made *ALL* the bug fixes between 6.5 beta 6 and beta 7
I can't afford to re-subscribe to the club just to get nuke 6.6, and even if I could, I wouldn't because it's not *just* because FB's charging for it and breaking the terms of the GNU
AI |
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Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by RikMerle on Monday, May 26 @ 19:14:21 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) http://www.phpnukesupport.net | Well that's your opinion and not mine, everybody reads something different into the GNU/GPL licence, it is FB's software and not from nukecops so in my opinion he can do anything with it he likes.
Guess there are more important things going on in the world to have a discussion about, don't you think ? |
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Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by snarfies3 on Sunday, May 25 @ 23:15:39 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) http://www.temple-anime.org/erik/ | | So, no further response, guys? I take it then that you cannot point to the clause of the GPL being violated because none of them are. You have proven yourselves to be grade-A whiners who owe FB an apology. |
Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by Raven on Monday, May 26 @ 01:59:50 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) http://ravenphpscripts.com | | Let's not turn this into name calling, ok? As you know from your own postings on phpnuke.org and the other 97 posts so far, it is a very heated debate and has been long running even before this. People interpret and understand the GPL in different ways and that will probably always be. FB brings much of this on himself because he over-reacts, just as he did again and is threatening to sell it all and move on, etc., rather than just directly responding. Be that as it may, we all need to just continue down our chosen paths. Thanks for your input and passion over this! |
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Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by ArtificialIntel on Monday, May 26 @ 08:04:07 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) | We owe FB an apology? I don't think so.
I've been in the IT Industry for years, and part of it specialised in Laws regarding software and piracy.
during this time, I had to study the GNU/GPL terms and conditions of the GNU.
If you read the GNU/GPL start to finish, you will see that it does, on more than one occation, specify that the licence is for Free software.
You can only charge for software on a commercial licence - which FB had to back down from because of the amount of protesting he got when he put a ridiculous price on it. If FB could charge for nuke legally, then he would, there would be no free versions at all.
Now. instead of arguing, I'm going back to ignoring you. If you choose to flame this post any more, then you'll be banned for disturbing the peace.
As I made it VERY clear in the original news post, there's not just those 2 reasons why we're not supporting Nuke 6.6
I might also like to point out that we provide this support to you for free. We don't get paid, Nuke Cops makes a big loss on the server costs, and we're under no obligation to provide support for any version of nuke. The fact we do except for nuke 6.6 just makes ppl lucky.
AI |
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Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by beebar on Monday, May 26 @ 18:15:04 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) | | Security Fixes should not be charged for! Even Microsoft patches their holes for free... Who cares about the new feature, what about the security concerns that have been fixed and not released? That is the true crime, hell if he wants to charge for it, I can't argue. But if you release something GPL then you should patch it the same way. |
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Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by dmolavi on Monday, May 26 @ 14:27:33 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) http://www.nukedgallery.net | | dudes, why'd you delete my comment re: availability of 6.6? by making this download available, i am ensuring FB's compliance with the GPL (ie, he can charge for the initial download, but can't stop people from freely redistributing it). |
Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by ArtificialIntel on Monday, May 26 @ 14:52:24 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) | no. You're not ensuring anything because it's FB who has to make it freely available. AND it's not just that compliance with the GNU issue that we're not supporting Nuke 6.6 for, there are otehr reasons too, 3 of which I posted in hte original news article.
As for links, as much as we may be in conflict with FB over some issues, we also respect his wishes in other matters, and as such, we're not allowing any download links placed on this site either. |
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Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by chris-au on Saturday, May 31 @ 00:05:35 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) http://sengers-au.com | | Deleting that comment without deleting the name of that site in 'profile' does not help much, does it? |
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Re: Support for PHP-Nuke 6.6 (Score: 1)
by chris-au on Saturday, May 31 @ 00:00:23 CEST
(User Info | Send a Message) http://sengers-au.com | Here below is a little story I found:
Digital rights management sounds unobjectionable on paper: Consumers
purchase certain rights to use creative works and are prevented from
violating those rights. Who could balk at that except the pirates? Fair is
fair, right? Well, no.
In reality, our legal system usually leaves us wiggle room. What's fair in
one case won't be in another - and only human judgment can discern the
difference. As we write the rules of use into software and hardware, we
are also rewriting the rules we live by as a society, without anyone first
bothering to ask if that's OK.
The problem starts with the fact that digital content can be copied -
perfectly - from one machine to another. This has led the recording and
movie industries to push for digital rights management schemes. Buy a
one-time right to play the latest hit song or movie, and DRM could prevent
you from playing it twice.
Of course, to exercise such exquisite control over content, DRM requires
deep changes to all parts of the equation - the hardware, the operating
system, and the content itself. Sure enough, some in Congress recently
pushed the FCC to add a "broadcast flag" to content which digital hardware
would be required to honor. DRM is barreling down the pike.
Joshua Ellingson
The usual criticism is that the scheme gives too much power to copyright
holders. But there's a deeper problem: Perfect enforcement of rules is by
its nature unfair. For contrast, consider how imperfectly rules are
applied in the real world.
If your lease stipulates that you can't paint without explicit permission
from your landlord, you will nevertheless patch up the scratches made by
your yappy little dog on the bottom of the front door. If the high-priced
industry analyst's report warns you on every page against duplicating,
you'll still hand out at your weekly sales meeting copies of a page with a
relevant chart. You'd snicker at the very suggestion of doing otherwise.
But why? The analyst report is stamped 'DO NOT PHOTOCOPY', and the bit in
your lease about not painting really couldn't be any clearer. We chuckle
because we all understand that before the law there's leeway - the true
bedrock of human relationships. Sure, we rely on rules to decide the hard
cases, but the rest of the time we cut one another a whole lot of slack.
We have to. That's the only way we humans can manage to share a world.
Otherwise, we'd be at one another's throats all the time - or, more
exactly, our lawyers would be at each other's throats.
Yet we're on the verge of instituting digital rights management. What do
computers do best? Obey rules. What do they do worst? Allow latitude. Why?
Because computers don't know when to look the other way.
We're screwed. Not because we MP3 cowboys and cowgirls will not have to
pay for content we've been "stealing." No, we're screwed because we're
undercutting the basis of our shared intellectual and creative lives. For
us to talk, argue, try out ideas, tear down and build up thoughts,
assimilate and appropriate concepts - heck, just to be together in public
- we have to grant all sorts of leeway. That's how ideas breed, how
cultures get built. If any public space needs plenty of light, air, and
room to play, it's the marketplace of ideas.
There are times when rules need to be imposed within that marketplace,
whether they
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