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Nuke Cops :: View topic - How do u feel yourself to use coded (close sourse) modules? [ ]
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edogs
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Joined: Sep 10, 2003
Posts: 172

Location: Russia

PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:23 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

The Zend, MMCache and etc... programms which allow to code the php-scripts and make it unreadable.
We made in past really perfect survey module ( search for edogs or/and opros in downloads archieve). Recently, at 29 jule, we update it to 109b final version (fixed small bugs).

Couple of months ago we had start work on 2.0 version of module. It will not be only the survey module, but much much more.
But the point is that we have to make decision
1) To leave it only on commercial release, and trade it. But we don't want to do it, really.
2) To code the script. It will not be open source. But of course it will have good tuning, which is comes already from first version. It will not be gnu/gpl (though first version too). But it will be free for use.
3) To leave the code opensource. But... we met too much facts of stealing and commercial use of this script without our permissions/agreement with us. And this gives us no pleasure. So we are not sure that this is good perspective.

We really wish to hear opinion of respected nukecops member, and non-respected members too:-)
Why they could stop themselves from using coded scripts?
We noticed, that very few peoples make any changes into code, so we don't think that this restrict peoples too much.
But we want and need to hear any comments.

Please, help us to make decision.
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SShowron
Corporal
Corporal


Joined: Jun 11, 2003
Posts: 54

Location: Qld, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:40 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I don't think you will find many people liking the idea.

Re: http://www.nukecops.com/postlite24192-.html

_________________
-- 'Expect the unexpected' -- Keroberos (Cardcaptor Sakura)
-- To err is human; to really foul things up takes a computer. --
-------------------------------------------------
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edogs
Lieutenant
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Joined: Sep 10, 2003
Posts: 172

Location: Russia

PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:59 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

SShowron wrote:
I don't think you will find many people liking the idea.

In topic there you had linked us to (thank you) you were the only one who told that he don't like this idea.
And there are was no real reasons, just opinion. We respect opinions, but we respect argumented opions more:-)

The another thing we could add. Closed code itself have a big popularity, don't forget about MS$ at least. So we can't accept it without at least any reasonable arguments.

We discussed this question on other forums before, and main "argument", if we could call it so, were "I wish to see the code, otherwise I will not download it". Point of view suitable for curious programmer, not for regular user. We never heard other reasons. This is why we decide to ask about it at nukecops.
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SShowron
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Joined: Jun 11, 2003
Posts: 54

Location: Qld, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:31 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

K, fair enough they are opinions. I stand by mine and DJMaze's post there also.

Here is a reason:

Not every webhost has the software installed to decode these encoded scripts.

Yes end users may not care that much, but how many people here on Nukecops are just 'end users'? Probably not many.

So maybe this wasn't such a good forum to post this question.

-----------------------------
OT: I think this topic should be in 'Chit Chat' - perhaps a mod can move it?

_________________
-- 'Expect the unexpected' -- Keroberos (Cardcaptor Sakura)
-- To err is human; to really foul things up takes a computer. --
-------------------------------------------------
http://www.e-devstudio.com | http://www.otaku-station.com (Not yet ready)
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edogs
Lieutenant
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Joined: Sep 10, 2003
Posts: 172

Location: Russia

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:38 am Reply with quoteBack to top

SShowron wrote:
K, fair enough they are opinions.

Yes. But without explanation we can't judge even for ourselves if this opinions correct or wrong.
Quote:
Here is a reason:
Not every webhost has the software installed to decode these encoded scripts.

It's not a restriction, and not a reason. Especially because in this topic we are talking only about Zend. And Zend support built in in php5.
Every good hosting have Zend support.
Quote:
Yes end users may not care that much, but how many people here on Nukecops are just 'end users'? Probably not many.

But "end users" are also webmasters, who create sites. And nukecops full of them.
Quote:
So maybe this wasn't such a good forum to post this question.

Possible. But who never ask never get answer:-)
But generally we guess that only two peoples from hundreds of nukecops users, arguing agains coded scripts... it's a really good sign. On other forums other the 10% of users argue agains. Here their amount less than 1%. Of course we will wait for more replies for about a week, but right now our decision that we will make and will use coded scripts.
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bretonmage
Captain
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Joined: Feb 21, 2004
Posts: 421


PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 1:03 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I personally like Open source, I can get into the code and see what's going on, maybe change small bits.

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edogs
Lieutenant
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Joined: Sep 10, 2003
Posts: 172

Location: Russia

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 1:25 am Reply with quoteBack to top

bretonmage wrote:
I personally like Open source, I can get into the code and see what's going on, maybe change small bits.

And the question is will it prevent you from using coded code?
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SShowron
Corporal
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Joined: Jun 11, 2003
Posts: 54

Location: Qld, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:25 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:

Yes. But without explanation we can't judge even for ourselves if this opinions correct or wrong.


There is never a right or wrong with opinions

Quote:

It's not a restriction, and not a reason. Especially because in this topic we are talking only about Zend. And Zend support built in in php5.
Every good hosting have Zend support.


PHP 5.0 doesn't have support for Zend Encoded Files, you still have to install Zend Optimizer.

Quote:

But "end users" are also webmasters, who create sites. And nukecops full of them.

Sorry. by 'end users' I meant users that just install but don't alter the code at all.

Quote:

Possible. But who never ask never get answer:-)
But generally we guess that only two peoples from hundreds of nukecops users, arguing agains coded scripts... it's a really good sign. On other forums other the 10% of users argue agains. Here their amount less than 1%. Of course we will wait for more replies for about a week, but right now our decision that we will make and will use coded scripts.


As of now, I give up arguing the point. Do what ever you like, and let usage figures do the talking.

Edit - Changed 'sales' to 'usage'.

_________________
-- 'Expect the unexpected' -- Keroberos (Cardcaptor Sakura)
-- To err is human; to really foul things up takes a computer. --
-------------------------------------------------
http://www.e-devstudio.com | http://www.otaku-station.com (Not yet ready)

Last edited by SShowron on Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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edogs
Lieutenant
Lieutenant


Joined: Sep 10, 2003
Posts: 172

Location: Russia

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:09 am Reply with quoteBack to top

SShowron wrote:
Quote:

But "end users" are also webmasters, who create sites. And nukecops full of them.

Sorry. by 'end users' I meant users that just install but don't alter the code at all.

Webmasters/webdesigners never alter code at all. Good design always separate from code. Don't you agree?

Quote:
As of now, I give up arguing the point. Do what ever you like, and let sales figures do the talking.

Ok. We understand point of misunderstanding.
You talk about sales, but you are wrong. We are not goint to sale the scripts. We are going to give them for free. Read our first post please. We would cover all expenses to Zend from our own pocket, and will not charge users for use.
Of course, we agree that PAID scrips, which are for sale, should be open source.
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SShowron
Corporal
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Joined: Jun 11, 2003
Posts: 54

Location: Qld, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:34 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Sorry about that but I still think it should remain open ('not encoded')

I think encoding scripts for what is an Open Source application itself is a bad idea. but whatever, your decision now, nothing will change my mind.

Also, I just thought of this, but another issue is trust - when something like this is closed source there is no way of knowing that is doing only what its intended for. I for one trust most *nuke developers but not every one would. (This would be good 'reason' why I wouldn't use encoded scripts now that I think about)

Anyway, hope it works out for you.

_________________
-- 'Expect the unexpected' -- Keroberos (Cardcaptor Sakura)
-- To err is human; to really foul things up takes a computer. --
-------------------------------------------------
http://www.e-devstudio.com | http://www.otaku-station.com (Not yet ready)
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edogs
Lieutenant
Lieutenant


Joined: Sep 10, 2003
Posts: 172

Location: Russia

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:18 am Reply with quoteBack to top

SShowron wrote:
Sorry about that but I still think it should remain open ('not encoded')

Don't be sorry. We appreciate your point of view, and really happy that you share your thought with us.
We would never try to change someone's point of view, it would be unrespect, we just discussing, yeah?Smile

Quote:
Also, I just thought of this, but another issue is trust - when something like this is closed source there is no way of knowing that is doing only what its intended for.

Heh. Agree. We realized that we can't trust our work to anyone, because copyright is not respected. Of course in such situation we can't wait same trust in return.

From curiosity, if you don't mind, please reply.
If to put you in "straight" choose.
To pay $$$ (a lot enough) for open source or to get free coded script. What would you choose?
No other way given?
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phikapjames
Nuke Cadet
Nuke Cadet


Joined: Aug 05, 2004
Posts: 3


PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 7:39 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I think a major point that is being missed a lot about people trying to make closed source modules is the fact that under the GNU/GPL license, you're not allowed to. PhpNuke is GNU/GPL license. You can read a faq about GNU/GPL at http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html . In particular, these parts are what would interest you:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

If a program released under the GPL uses plug-ins, what are the requirements for the licenses of a plug-in?

It depends on how the program invokes its plug-ins. If the program uses fork and exec to invoke plug-ins, then the plug-ins are separate programs, so the license for the main program makes no requirements for them.

If the program dynamically links plug-ins, and they make function calls to each other and share data structures, we believe they form a single program, so plug-ins must be treated as extensions to the main program. This means they must be released under the GPL or a GPL-compatible free software license, and that the terms of the GPL must be followed when those plug-ins are distributed.

If the program dynamically links plug-ins, but the communication between them is limited to invoking the `main' function of the plug-in with some options and waiting for it to return, that is a borderline case.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seeing as phpNuke doesn't call a fork or exec to run the modules and they do share function calls, addons/modules would need to be released under a GNU/GPL compantilbe license, aka. Open Source.


Last edited by phikapjames on Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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edogs
Lieutenant
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Joined: Sep 10, 2003
Posts: 172

Location: Russia

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 7:54 am Reply with quoteBack to top

phikapjames wrote:
Seeing as phpNuke doesn't call a fork or exec to run the modules and they do share function calls, addons/modules would need to be released under a GNU/GPL compantilbe license, aka. Open Source.

Can't agree with it.
1) php-nuke doesn't call the functions of plug-ins. And in license were told clear - "to each other".
2) inlcude seems for us same as fork and exec. include just execute external code.
3) Only used part of code have to stay open source. New parts of code could be closed or open source. Just if you MAKE new plug-in, and INCLUDE in this plug-in parts of code of php-nuke, THESE parts have to be opensource, but not code itself
So modules/blocks and etc we guess, doesn't suits the GNU/GPL license. It's just a scripts which can be included to php-nuke. Or can be not included. Or even could work separately.
Let's remember coppermine for example. It's standalone script. Let's guess for a bit, that coppermine would be with closed code. In this case nobody have right to install it with php-nuke? It's strange logic then.
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bretonmage
Captain
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Joined: Feb 21, 2004
Posts: 421


PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:39 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

edogs wrote:
bretonmage wrote:
I personally like Open source, I can get into the code and see what's going on, maybe change small bits.

And the question is will it prevent you from using coded code?


If it wasn't exactly the way I wanted it on install, it would prevent me, yes.
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phikapjames
Nuke Cadet
Nuke Cadet


Joined: Aug 05, 2004
Posts: 3


PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:30 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
1) php-nuke doesn't call the functions of plug-ins. And in license were told clear - "to each other".

Your module would use phpnuke functions for displaying the theme, blocks, etc. Now phpnuke would also call your functions (the modules.php file callles your module as a function to display it). The only way to show the theme correctly would be to use the functions in the theme.php which is also GNU/GPL. There are ways around this, but if you want to know how you can just ask.

Quote:
2) inlcude seems for us same as fork and exec. include just execute external code.

This is a false theory. Php has a seperate function for executing external code (exec). This executes the command via a shell (different process than programming calling it) and doesn't share any data structures. Fork doesn't exists in php. To take a step into it even farther, documentation on the include on the php.net site says (here):
When a file is included, the code it contains inherits the variable scope of the line on which the include occurs. Any variables available at that line in the calling file will be available within the called file, from that point forward.
This is sharing of data structures.

Quote:
Let's remember coppermine for example. It's standalone script. Let's guess for a bit, that coppermine would be with closed code. In this case nobody have right to install it with php-nuke? It's strange logic then.

If the case was that coppermine was closed source (which it is GNU/GPL) it wouldn't have been added to phpnuke. There is a standalone. If you want to use it with phpnuke though, you have to use a different version which is not a standalone. On top of that, the people who ported it over were seperate people who would not have been able to create the addon if it was closed source. The code actually uses some nuke functions also.

Quote:
3) Only used part of code have to stay open source. New parts of code could be closed or open source. Just if you MAKE new plug-in, and INCLUDE in this plug-in parts of code of php-nuke, THESE parts have to be opensource, but not code itself

This is very wrong and is the opposite for what GNU/GPL is all about. I would again recommend you go to http://www.gnu.org and read about the license. From this comment it really shows that you really do not understand the license at all.
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